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Law School Tiers
It's not a perfect science

There is no universally agreed upon neat chart that outlines each law school and their ‘tier.’ Law school are generalizations that typically originate from the USNews annual rankings.

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jb2028
18:36
By comparison, Tennessee has 2% of the class fail out (https://law.utk.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/2023-ABA-Standard-509-Information-Report.pdf), 16% fail the bar even in a bad year (https://law.utk.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/UTK-College-of-Law-Bar-Passage-20241.pdf), and just 1 in 10 did not find legal or JD advantage jobs (https://law.utk.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/EQ-Summary-Report-Class-of-2023.pdf)
jb2028
18:38
Depending on your stats the answer could also be option C, reapply next year for >50% at Tennessee/substantial $ at other good schools (most spend their scholarship budget by June 30th), but that depends on your situation and goals
jb2028
18:39
Standardized info on curves is harder to find, but this says Elon curves to a 2.67 which is downright predatory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_school_GPA_curves
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
18:41
appreciate it. i am well removed from undergrad and am pushing through for this year. have significant business experience and want to do corporate law and/or property. not educated on the curve and how that works, will look into that
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
18:42
questioning whether i go to school for free at a lesser school or pay some out of pocket at a better name for the same degree at end of the day, the numbers don't lie
jb2028
18:54
@DisillusionedHomelessWalnut: The way the curve works is a below-median student at Tennessee (curves to a 3.1, so B/B+) can end up with a better GPA than an above-average student at Elon (curves to a 2.67/B-minus), so the student from Tennessee will have a better transcript *and* get better jobs on average than someone with the same class rank at Elon
jb2028
18:56
Your real alarm bell is Elon's curve (linked here, p. 70 https://eloncdn.blob.core.windows.net/eu3/sites/996/2019/07/2017-2018_Academic_Catalog-and-Student_Handbook.pdf) *requires* profs to give 20% of first-year students a C-minus or worse, when the school's bar for "satisfactory academic progress" is a C+ average
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
18:59
ooooffff. thanks. i mean, full ride is cool and all, but damn
jb2028
18:59
The only scenario where a school does something like that (curve to a 2.67, dismiss students below 2.25) is when they're admitting a lot of students who may not pass the bar, then flunking people out mercilessly so the school can keep its accreditation (ABA requires 75% of grads to pass the bar within two years, can't fail the bar if the school doesn't let you graduate)
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
18:59
the dean told me "no students had their scholarships reduced in the past three years, and to my recollection only one scholarship in 19 years has been reduced when a student was in good standing"
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:01
yeah, i get that and appreciate you validating that point. i like to think it really wouldn't apply to me and assume it happens due to the lower standards of admissions they utilize, but is it (full ride) worth the risk? that's the fly in the ointment
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:02
just trying to weigh all angles, seems like just biting the bullet and paying the modest amount to UTK is a smarter decision
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:04
end of cycle is for the birds, but i'm playing the hand i was dealt :)
jb2028
19:06
In general you are going to be better off at a school that wants its students to succeed. UTK seems to fit the description - they are not in any danger of losing their accreditation, don't need to force people out. Elon very much does not, if their bar passage drops 2% they'll be in violation of ABA requirements so they won't give students any leway
jb2028
19:06
*leeway
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:08
i appreciate your insight, friend
manifestmoreadmissions
19:11
im too lazy to provide the same level of detail as JB but I agree UTK seems like a better bet to actually achieve your career goals and set yourself up for success. I would understand being conflicted if it were like UTK vs Belmont or a lower ranked school that isn't considered predatory but because it's Elon that makes it more clear to me
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:15
thank you
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:17
the counterpoint bouncing around my head is basically "if i'm worth a damn, as i think i am, i'll be just fine no matter what the curve is" but you folks are nudging me in the direction of logic and common sense
manifestmoreadmissions
19:18
plenty of the people who fall behind are worth a damn it's just that some schools are basically set up to screw people over
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:19
yeah. fall behind as in....miss homework? can't keep up with readings? something else?
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:20
kinda nervous coming in as an untraditional guy around KJD's, billy madison vibes over here
jb2028
19:21
Re: costs, it's worth looking at costs all around, both schools cost (net tuition, $0 at Elon/$30K over 3 years if you're in-state at UTK) PLUS three years not earning money or advancing in your career, which is worth 6 figures if you make decent money now. $30K in tuition is a small share of total costs in this comparison
jb2028
19:24
"Fall behind" in this context means law school curves are rigid, no matter how hard everyone studies half the class will be below-median, 25% in the bottom quarter, etc. It's not super predictable either, so a student above GPA or LSAT median could still end up bottom half or 1/4 of the class
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:27
gotcha. predatory in that instance is certainly appropriate
manifestmoreadmissions
19:32
i am not kjd but im glad jb cleared that up for you lmao
jb2028
19:32
And assuming similar class rank, UTK grads tend to do better in public data. Top students at UTK have a shot at biglaw (pays $225K), top students at Elon end up at small/medium firms (worse pay). Average students at UTK can get jobs at small/medium firms, average students at Elon are on the bubble for any firm job at all. Below-average students at UTK have a shot at firm jobs or other work, below-average students at Elon might not get jobs (or pass the bar, or avoid academic dismissal). That's the major advantage of well-regarded schools - more upside, less downside
manifestmoreadmissions
19:32
but yeah just reiterating that you could be worth so many damns and still not do well because its set up for that
jb2028
19:37
(This is ignoring public service/government jobs, because the stats there don't tell us much about the type of job - "super competitive Department of Justice job in DC making $90K" and "local government job earning $50K" both get lumped together under the "public service" label, but say v. different things about a school's job placement
DisillusionedHomelessWalnut
19:38
really appreciate all the insight
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