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Is the USNWR list really a good indication of what makes a good law school?

Ehhhhhhh...
Apr 2, 2023

Table of Contents

  1. Summary
  2. Bitter Much?
  3. Why did Harvard Drop?
  4. So is UChicago so much better than Harvard now?
  5. Things to consider
  6. Related Articles

Yes and no. It is the list that people think of first when they think of how good a school is. But it also forces schools to get ranked (obviously) which pushes people away from the nuance of what makes schools different. 

The algorithm that USNews uses to rank schools is proprietary and a secret, but some researchers did some analytics magic and found some interesting/disturbing/informative things about the way in which schools are ranked. You can read about that here.

Overall, what they found (maybe obviously) is that the ranking system is better for schools with big endowments, which admit students with the highest scores, and which seem elite. Other things do matter, like employment rates, but according to this research those things that you might care about like employment or financial aid might not be that relevant in the rankings of schools. 

In no way does that mean that USNews is useless or that you should ignore it. Instead we recommend taking the rankings themselves with a grain of salt. Instead, think about what you want out of a school and check out the objective facts. If you care about how much money you will make after school then rank schools based on median income. If you care about student-faculty ratio then rank schools based on that (but one person’s opinion: student-faculty ratio are kinda useless because they have no impact on how big classes are, and are really just an indicator that a school employs a lot of people AKA has a big endowment). 

Also, you should look outside of rankings and USNews to get information on schools. If class diversity matters to you, then you should check out school websites to pull demographic information on the most recent class. If you want to join clubs or journals at school then look into what is available at the school. Neither of these pieces of information (as far as we can see) is a significant factor in USNews school rankings, but both are important to a lot of people. 

Did you write this article because you are connected to Harvard and it dropped from 3 to 4 and you are bitter and your feelings are super hurt and so you want to say that rankings don’t matter?

Good question, but no. I am/was not a Harvard student (though my Significant Other was) but my words are completely my own. Unless USNWR is reading, in which case, yes Harvard made me write it.   

But why did Harvard Law drop from 3 to 4 in the rankings?

Since the USNews ranking methodology is a secret it is nearly impossible to tell exactly why. There are a lot of theories floating around Harvard Law though. If you go to UChicago and have theories, let us know.

So should I go to UChicago instead of Harvard now?

For this answer I will assume that you have already gotten into both programs. If you are still applying, then you should apply to both. If you are only applying to T-3 schools based on USNews then you are setting yourself up for sadness as law school admissions are a nebulous process. 

Let’s assume you have gotten into Harvard Law and UChicago, and you are deciding between the two. First, Congrats! That is awesome. Second, you should choose the school where you think you will be happiest, and/or will lead you to the most success in the future. Do USNews rankings actually matter for that? No. Even if we assume that the USNews rankings are a perfect representation of value, then the difference between 3 and 4, 10 and 15, or 149 and 101 are all pretty irrelevant. 

What really matters is that you will succeed at the school you attend. So what should you consider when choosing a school? It really depends on what you want out of your experience, but some things that everyone considers: 

  1. Total Cost (including scholarships and financial aid)
  2. Employment outcomes (keep in mind that USNews (and LSD) reports employment percentage based on how many people go into jobs that require a JD
  3. Location (Cambridge and Chicago are pretty different cities)

Some things to consider when choosing a law school that are not as apparent in ranking systems:

  1. Loan repayment assistance programs (LRAP). Only a few schools have LRAPsbut they can have major impacts on the real cost of school, especially if you are planning on pursuing a lower pay job like public interest after law school. 
  2. Enrollment numbers. There is nothing inherently good or bad about a large or small class year so it doesn’t play into many rankings, but the feeling at a big school vs a small school is very different.  
  3. Legal ideology. Some schools lean towards conservative legal thinking and some towards liberal thinking. If it matters to you, then you should consider it when picking a school.
  4. Academic mentality. What I mean are things like collaboration vs competition for grades, focus on grades vs social life, honesty between students regarding goals and grades. This one is really hard to pin down, and you can really only get a sense by talking to current students.  
  5. Where you want to live after law school. Unless you are going to a top-ranked law school it can be hard to find a law job outside of the state you graduate from. So when you are thinking about school location, you should think beyond the three years of law school.

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Windsor MIT '22, Harvard College Advisor

I am the half of LSD that didn't take the LSAT, or go to law school (Sorry about that). But I did go to MIT business school while surrounded by law students and lawyers, so I am somewhat qualified to talk about the intricacies of law school apps and finances.

Windsor (the dog) didn't write this but he WAS a Resident Tutor and career advisor at Harvard College with me, so deserves some credit.

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questioning whether i go to school for free at a lesser school or pay some out of pocket at a better name for the same degree at end of the day, the numbers don't lie
18:54
@DisillusionedHomelessWalnut: The way the curve works is a below-median student at Tennessee (curves to a 3.1, so B/B+) can end up with a better GPA than an above-average student at Elon (curves to a 2.67/B-minus), so the student from Tennessee will have a better transcript *and* get better jobs on average than someone with the same class rank at Elon
18:56
Your real alarm bell is Elon's curve (linked here, p. 70 https://eloncdn.blob.core.windows.net/eu3/sites/996/2019/07/2017-2018_Academic_Catalog-and-Student_Handbook.pdf) *requires* profs to give 20% of first-year students a C-minus or worse, when the school's bar for "satisfactory academic progress" is a C+ average
ooooffff. thanks. i mean, full ride is cool and all, but damn
18:59
The only scenario where a school does something like that (curve to a 2.67, dismiss students below 2.25) is when they're admitting a lot of students who may not pass the bar, then flunking people out mercilessly so the school can keep its accreditation (ABA requires 75% of grads to pass the bar within two years, can't fail the bar if the school doesn't let you graduate)
the dean told me "no students had their scholarships reduced in the past three years, and to my recollection only one scholarship in 19 years has been reduced when a student was in good standing"
yeah, i get that and appreciate you validating that point. i like to think it really wouldn't apply to me and assume it happens due to the lower standards of admissions they utilize, but is it (full ride) worth the risk? that's the fly in the ointment
just trying to weigh all angles, seems like just biting the bullet and paying the modest amount to UTK is a smarter decision
end of cycle is for the birds, but i'm playing the hand i was dealt :)
19:06
In general you are going to be better off at a school that wants its students to succeed. UTK seems to fit the description - they are not in any danger of losing their accreditation, don't need to force people out. Elon very much does not, if their bar passage drops 2% they'll be in violation of ABA requirements so they won't give students any leway
19:06
*leeway
i appreciate your insight, friend
manifestmoreadmissions
19:11
im too lazy to provide the same level of detail as JB but I agree UTK seems like a better bet to actually achieve your career goals and set yourself up for success. I would understand being conflicted if it were like UTK vs Belmont or a lower ranked school that isn't considered predatory but because it's Elon that makes it more clear to me
thank you
the counterpoint bouncing around my head is basically "if i'm worth a damn, as i think i am, i'll be just fine no matter what the curve is" but you folks are nudging me in the direction of logic and common sense
manifestmoreadmissions
19:18
plenty of the people who fall behind are worth a damn it's just that some schools are basically set up to screw people over
yeah. fall behind as in....miss homework? can't keep up with readings? something else?
kinda nervous coming in as an untraditional guy around KJD's, billy madison vibes over here
19:21
Re: costs, it's worth looking at costs all around, both schools cost (net tuition, $0 at Elon/$30K over 3 years if you're in-state at UTK) PLUS three years not earning money or advancing in your career, which is worth 6 figures if you make decent money now. $30K in tuition is a small share of total costs in this comparison
19:24
"Fall behind" in this context means law school curves are rigid, no matter how hard everyone studies half the class will be below-median, 25% in the bottom quarter, etc. It's not super predictable either, so a student above GPA or LSAT median could still end up bottom half or 1/4 of the class
gotcha. predatory in that instance is certainly appropriate
manifestmoreadmissions
19:32
i am not kjd but im glad jb cleared that up for you lmao
19:32
And assuming similar class rank, UTK grads tend to do better in public data. Top students at UTK have a shot at biglaw (pays $225K), top students at Elon end up at small/medium firms (worse pay). Average students at UTK can get jobs at small/medium firms, average students at Elon are on the bubble for any firm job at all. Below-average students at UTK have a shot at firm jobs or other work, below-average students at Elon might not get jobs (or pass the bar, or avoid academic dismissal). That's the major advantage of well-regarded schools - more upside, less downside
manifestmoreadmissions
19:32
but yeah just reiterating that you could be worth so many damns and still not do well because its set up for that
19:37
(This is ignoring public service/government jobs, because the stats there don't tell us much about the type of job - "super competitive Department of Justice job in DC making $90K" and "local government job earning $50K" both get lumped together under the "public service" label, but say v. different things about a school's job placement
really appreciate all the insight
manifestmoreadmissions
23:07
for those going to school in fall 24 when did you add your school to your linkedin profile
MightyUnableSphinx
23:13
add as soon as you get in! :)
MightyUnableSphinx
23:13
it's like a little micro celebration!
23:15
Anyone else here plan on practicing around PDX?
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